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Photo Credit: Isaiah J. Dowling-USA TODAY Sports

Stanton To the Yankees, Everything Terrible

Welp. Giancarlo Stanton is going to play for the New York Yankees.

It’s a pretty fun thing for baseball, actually. That’s a hell of a lineup!

I mean… for fuck sakes:

It is, of course, significantly less fun for those of us who follow a team that’s chasing the Yankees. And also less fun for those of us who expect better of the league than to have sold the Marlins to such a pathetic joke of an ownership group. Which isn’t to say that the Yankees shouldn’t have jumped at this chance, or that Stanton didn’t have every right to use his no-trade clause to control the process and end up where he wanted. It’s just… holy shit, MLB, if the Jays are going to end up being sold by Rogers, can ya maybe do a better fucking job of finding new owners who actually have the capital to run the goddamn team? Jon Tayler of Sports Illustrated gets it right when he laments, “What else can you call this trade other than an abject disaster for a franchise seemingly committed to being a pointless mess for the rest of its existence?”

But yeah… so, the Jays…

After some initial waves of drunken anger about it last night, I think I’ve finally found the thing I’m going to cling to here:

I don’t know how else you approach this. Oh, sure, there are some real fucking galaxy brain Jays fans out there who seem to be dying for the club to give up and pack it in, posturing as though they wouldn’t be bothered by what that entails, but the thing is, the Jays were already looking up at the Yankees. Don’t get me wrong, this is a problem. But the Jays’ chances of passing both the Yankees and Red Sox and winning the AL East were already fairly slim, so I’m not sure why this changes much — at least not for 2018. And as for 2019 and beyond, well… it’s not like the Yankees were going to sit idle while guys like Bryce Harper and Manny Machado hit the open market.

But yes, the Yankees are a very good team, look like they will be for a while, gave up shit all to the dumbass cheapfuck Marlins, and it fucking sucks.

It feels a little bit like the Ricciardi era at the moment, there’s no denying it. But with a couple of vital differences. First is the fact that there’s a now an extra playoff spot up for grabs in each league — something that probably makes the Angels’ acquisition of Shohei Otani yesterday a more troubling development than this one (and like this one, that was hardly reason to pack it in either). The second is that the people running the Jays have had one eye on the long term for two years now, have good track records when it comes to player development, and franchises like Cleveland and Houston to look to as models — teams that have built incredibly strong rosters without the spending power of the Yankees and Red Sox. (There’s also the luxury tax; a factor here, as the Yankees are sending Starlin Castro — perhaps now a Jays target? — to Miami, rather than just assuming all the salary, paying all the money, and not giving a shit about the consequences.)

So… like yesterday, the Jays need to get better. Like yesterday, they’re probably looking at a Wild Card spot at best and can’t be expected to mortgage that future betterment by blowing their brains out going too hard on 2018. Like yesterday, the idea of trading Josh Donaldson is going to be very tempting. (Like yesterday, the Jays should fucking extend him already.)

I can’t just shrug this off, obviously, because that slim “if everything breaks our way” chance for the Jays to exceed our low expectations just got even slimmer — and the Yankees being absolute fucking monsters doesn’t exactly help their Wild Card pursuit, given the unbalanced schedule. But it is what it is. The Yankees are a problem and the Jays are taking the middle way. In the near term it might work, it might not. But it’s worth finding out.

Y’know, at least until July. Ughhhhhhhhhhhh.

      • DAKINS

        One of those years they even made the fucking playoffs. They just don’t live in the same reality that the other teams do. I really wished the MLB was serious about parity in the league, but clearly they couldn’t give any less of a shit.

        • Teddy Ballgame

          I don’t even hate the Yankees. They’ve gotten into this position by being brilliant about building and exploiting their brand, about putting the money they make back into the team, about developing great players internally while spending to get the best free agents available. The Yankees set the bar. I’m less about trying to lower the bar so that lesser organizations can compete (although the second wild card I think does that nicely) and more about wanting to see the Jays live up to that standard. And I think it can be done. With the front office staff we have, and the financial resources available in this market, there’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to compete at that level. If Cleveland and Houston can do it, Toronto should be able to as well.

          • Oakville Jays

            The problem is that the Jays will have to face the Ynkees & Red Sox 38 times in 2018. The Cleveland & Houston model works in weaker divisions. A balanced schedule is necessary for the Jays to compete

          • lukewarmwater

            This reminds me of way, way, way back in the early days of the N.H.L. expansion when Frank Selke Jr. went to the Oakland Seals as the G.M., he was of course the son of Frank Selke sr. who ran the Habs operation. Needless to say purely coincidentally, Frank Selke helped arrange the trading of their first round pick to Montreal, for a bum of the month club hockey player. That first round player became Guy Lafleur. So yeah with Jeter with the Marlins, this totally reeks of a sell out to his old team the Yankees. It is pure bull shit.

          • lukewarmwater

            Yeah but Teddy remember that Rogers only had 3.2 million go through the turn styles. Money is tight with Rogers. Maybe they just might give us meaningful games in August.

          • lukewarmwater

            Oakville exactly right. Let us recall the Twins won two world series and made the playoffs with one of the worst divisions in baseball as their competitors in their division were absolute crap. Once you get into the playoffs you can have a pitcher who has a playoff of a century that helps the team win a world series. Just ask Madison of the Giants and his 0.25 e.r.a. in 36 innings of playoff baseball.

          • DAKINS

            It was more a comment about the league allowing an ex-Yankee to acquire a “struggling” baseball team without putting any really money into the purchase, who then trades their best asset to his rich ex-team, while making his new team worse off in the process, without getting any real talent or money back in return. Oh, and then gave some money to the Yankees as well for their troubles.

            The Marlins gave Stanton a massive contract, then complained that they couldn’t actually afford it.

            They then sold the team to a group that couldn’t afford it either, so they had “no choice” but to dump his salary onto a team who didn’t need him, but could afford him easily.

            That’s not parity. That’s a joke.

    • Player to Be Named Later

      And that slim window is one of the reasons that it made sense for AA to push his chips in when he did. We knew this day was coming. This sucks.

  • AD

    Ughhh such a defeatist attitude…

    1) first thing, the yankees were not definitely better than the jays before this move. With some clever moves, the jays could have been better than them. Now yankees are clearly better and its a big problem.
    2) im just super annoyed how stanton forced his way there. The yanks werent even that interested in him until he declined stl and sf. And thet got him for almost nothing, such bullshit. Fuck you jeter.
    3) im pissed off at the jays for not even trying to go after him. If you want to keep jD and go for it in 2018 they should have alteast tried for stanton. Yes, he has a no trade clause but we dont know for a fact he would have not waived it to come here. So fuck you rogers.
    4) the time to rebuild is now. Jays are fooling themselves by going half assed. Either go all in or fold. Middle isnt good enough and its what led the jays to the wilderness in the mid 90s to 2015.

      • Nice Guy Eddie

        What, practically speaking, does “go all in” mean? Trade Guerrero and Bichette, Warmoth and Zeuch, Alford and Pearson, for guys in their 30’s whose salaries the other teams went to dump, like the Marlins trade and the Tulo trade? If that’s ‘going all in’ please don’t. Or does it mean sign idiot deals on the free agent market? Pay Darvish $200 million (I dont even know if he’d come to Canada for that). Pay Price money to a fading Arrieta so we can be stuck with another faded star? Give up the draft picks that go along with that?

        That’s how the Mets built “The Worst Team Money Could Buy”. It didn’t win. The only way we will win is by building the strong core of talent that underpins the Yankees and Red Sox. While Toronto was focussed on getting yesterday’s news like Josh Johnson, Jose Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki and giving up talent for it, the Yankees and Red Sox built strong organizations from the ground through the draft and international signings. There’s no quick fix here.

        • AD

          “All in” is a combination of trades and free agent signings for good players. But it involves taking on a lot of $ like the Yankees did for Giancarlo. You dont have to give up your best prospects but need to make trades and take on $. Something that Rogers wont do.

          Also, how do you know Darvish wouldnt come to play here? I hate it when ppl say” oh, no chance he would come here” how the fuck do you know? Or when players have no trade clauses we assume they wouldnt waive it to come here. Yes, the taxes suck but so do a lot of other places. New york has high tax rates too.

        • lukewarmwater

          Exactly, the Jays rebuild will take time as the Yankees and Red Sox get into a competitive war and simply pick up the top free agents available each season. Sounds like a real plan to me.

    • Nice Guy Eddie

      How would the Jays ‘try for Stanton’? Are you aware at all of the situation? Do you realize he had a no-trade contract, and reportedly tentatively approved only the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs and Astros? He turned down the San Francisco Giants and the Cards. I suspect the idea of waiving his no trade to go play in Canada, where almost every player in the majors has a no-trade to, never entered his mind.

    • Steve-O

      1. Ok, nothing really objectively terrible about this comment, per se.
      2. Oh dear. We’re officially off the rails. Yes, how dare a player have some leverage and choose to use it. The nerve!
      3. LOL
      4. No.

  • Nice Guy Eddie

    The large difference in talent base between the Yankees and Red Sox on one hand, and the Blue Jays on the other, is the result of the disparity in talent acquisition through drafting, international signing, and trades during the Anthopoulos period and to a lesser extent, the Ricciardi period. While the Yankees drafted or signed, and developed players like Judge, Sanchez, Bird, Gregorius, Greybar, Torres, etc, and while the Red Sox drafted or signed and developed players like Betts, Benintendi, JBJ, Devers, Boegarts, Moncada, Kopech, Shaw etc, the only starting positional player from the Anthopoulos era is the offensively challenged Kevin Pillar.. The only positional prospect of any real value from the Anthopoulos era is Guerrrero, who was bought on the international auction rather than drafted. The only pitching value left from that era is Stoman and Sanchez. The Yankees and Red Sox didn’t buy their teams, they drafted signed and developed them. Toronto on the other hand, failed to draft or sign positional talent, and focused instead on pitching which it measured poorly in trades. Syndergaard (and their top positional prospect) for Dickey, which propelled them from last place in 2012 to. last place 2013, is one of the worst trades in franchise history, if not the history of trades. The Tulo deal where the previous years #9 overall pick in a stacked draft, along with two other pitchers, was dealt for a bad contract for the corpse of Troy Tulowitzki, rivals it.

    This is not something you can rectify on the free agent market, which is the market for really bad contracts. The players the Yankees would love to dump (Ellsbury, Headley) and the Red Sox (Price) are the sucker deals they signed on the free agent market. Players like Jay Bruce, average players who won’t cost a high pick, are asking for ridiculous deals in the 5-year range. Players who will also cost a pick are looking for 6 year deals now to cover the period when they,, like Tulowitzki, will be salary drains with little or no value.

    This a a bad trade for the Blue Jays, the Rays and the O;s, none of which have anywhere near the talent base of the Yankees and Red Sox. Thos two front offices did a great job in the 2010 to 2015 period of acquiring young talent. Ours didn’t, and when it did acquire players too easily traded them for too little in old players like Buehrle, Dickey, Tulowitzki etc, or else short term rentals.

    The FO should steady the course. You’re not going to make up for what wasn’t done in the period leading up to 2016 by making stupid trades and stupid signings now. Stanton will fade, Judge will fade, just like Tulo did. But both the Yankees and the Red Sox have such a talented young core that it’s going to be a long, ugly while. Welcome to Toronto, Mark/Ross/Ben et al. The internet will be screaming for you to sign the stupidest deals possible. Prince Fielder? Sure. David Price? Sure. James Shields? Of course. Jose Bautista at 5/130? Statues should be torn down if it doesn’t happen. Just stay the course. Do the best, build the system, and hope for a Wild Card.

    • AD

      Agreed on the position player issue. Jays havent developed a good position player in a looonng time, likely wells. I dont count pillar, hes awful.

      The rationale at the time was it was easier to trade pitching for hitting than vice versa. And its harder to find good arms and its more coveted

      • Steinberg

        Well, Torres was signed and developed by the Cubs and was acquired in the Chapman deal. Gregorius was also acquired in a trade, and yes, while he did perform better since leaving ARI, the Jays also have several examples of players that performed better after being given regular AB and playing time. Bird has had one good month. Judge has had one good half season. Moncada was the product of BOS “buying a team” with an incredulous $31.5 million signing bonus. Pablo and HanRam were also big signings in addition to the Price deal.

        As for the front office doing a worse job than the two division competing teams you mentioned – Toronto did have some strong draft years, Boston had a stellar one in 2011 and NYY acquired Bird and Judge over that period. Pompey, Alford, Jansen and Tellez all could still be productive members of this team going forward. Internationally they signed Osuna, Barreto (traded for an MVP-caliber positional player) and Vlad Jr (who could be as good if not better than any name you mentioned on the other two teams). Hardly the imbalance in talent acquisition you make it out to be.

        We can analyze the Syndergaard+ deal for Dickey until the end of time, but let’s not forget that Noah was far from a finished product ready to step into the rotation at the time. What development he did in the Mets org between the trade and being promoted is surely not the step-for-step same as it would have been in the Jays system. Some talent analyzers figured him as a bullpen arm. Syndergaard’s cumulative WAR since trade – 10.9 by Fangraphs metric. Dickey in his 4 years with the team? 6.4. And the Lawrie, Barreto+ deal for Donaldson is a counterbalance when weighing the deals made by the previous regime.

        • Nice Guy Eddie

          Good catches on Didi and Torres. Still. If you seriously think that Pompey, Alford, Jansen, and Tellez are in the area code as Judge, Sanchez, Betts, JBJ, Benetendi etc, then I want what you had. There is a huge disparity, And there’s not much to analyze about the Syndergaard heist. Alderson sure knew who he wanted. He gave one name. It’s no defence to say that Toronto’s GM didnt know what he was giving up. Using a short term of Syndergaard’s WAR isn’t useful for comparison. You didn’t mention the Tulo deal. Another terrible deal.

          I’m not dissing the scouting dept under Alex. The farther you got from Alex’s first pick the better they did, although they did a poor job on position players. But the first picks, Alex’s picks, were as a group very poor. Deck McGuire, Tyler Beede (did not sign), DJ Davis, Bickford (did not sign), Hoffman (could be good, but traded for a bad contract), Jon Harris – is a very poor return. Hard to keep up with the other teams with that record.

          • Steinberg

            My point is it takes a lot of solid contributing members to win, not just a big name or two or three.
            If that was the case, should the Angels not have been perennial champs the minute Trout was promoted? You refer to Judge and JBJ being in the same area code? Alford has all the potential to be as good, if not better than JBJ. In a few years time could we not be talking about Vlad Jr in the same way you talk of Judge right now?

            I didn’t say Alex didn’t know what he was giving up in Syndergaard, what I’m saying is Noah’s development trajectory changed when he entered the Mets farm system. Players don’t go from point A to point B without an external influences. You’re surrounded by a new group of coaches who all see new and different ways to maximize your abilities. I’m saying we can never assume he would have become the exact same pitcher had he stayed in the Jays farm system. Using short term value is perfectly acceptable when a GM sees a window of opportunity. The Cubs did the same when they gave up a potential perennial AS in Torres to acquire Chapman to win it all. The Jays did the same when they gave up Jeff Kent to acquire David Cone. The Tulo deal is no different – Alex saw a need and dealt from the prospect base they had amassed over his tenure. He saw a window, and the team made it further than they had in 22 years prior. And you gloss over the Donaldson deal.

            Kolbrin Vitek, Trey Ball, Deven Marrero, Cito Culver, Eric Jagielo, Tyler Hensley…they were all 1st round draft picks by the Red Sox and Yankees and have failed to make any impact in the majors. Every team has their failed picks. This year’s champs even drafted Mark Appel 1st overall in 2013, over Kris Bryant.

            I’m not saying Alex was perfect, I’m just saying we should reign in the ‘previous regime’ hatred a bit. The Jays now have 2 of MLB Pipeline’s top 20 positional prospects. Sure Bo was drafted in the Shapiro/Atkins era, but he’s on record as saying he chose to sign due to how the organization develops their players. Alford sits at #44 overall. The future isn’t so bleak.

          • Nice Guy Eddie

            Steinberg, the Reply button disappears this far down on thread on Safari, so if this is above your last post it’s intended to be in reply.

            You make a couple of good points. First, I didn’t mention the Donaldson trade. You’re right. It was a good, or even a vg one, comparable to Sale. The Wells dump was good too. And I give Alex a pass on the Miami deal, bc even though it was a poor move in light of talent acquisition in the long term, the major and minor league talent base that he began with after Ricciardi (though it must be remembered Alex was the AGM for some of that mess.) But in terms of what he created overall his record was poor. I don’t buy for a moment, and nor should you, that Alex traded a sows ear and it mysteriously became a silk purse with Syndergaard. Alderson knew exactly what he wanted and Alex gave it up. The Mets didn’t ‘recreate’ Syndergaard. Alex made a terrible trade. But what made it dreadful was timing. His team finished in last place. He made a ‘go for it’ move in the offseason, and went from last place to last place. If any other GM made a blunder of that order, he’d be ridiculed. And rightly so. Similarly the Tulo trade was also dreadful. He did the reverse Wells with that one, only worse, trading real talent value for another team’s salary dump. With Reyes’ bad two year deal, he went from the frying pan to the fire with a deal that still has 3 years for an ex-star who doesn’t perform. And his desperation for a shortstop, to repeat came from 15 years of poor positional player drafting including 6 when he was GM and prior to which he was AGM. It’s not at all like Kent/Cone. Cone was not a salary dump. He was a continuing star. I would say that the current FO in 2 years has drafted and obtained in trade more positional strength up the middle than the previous 2 FO’s did in 15 years. The Hutchison/Liriano deals, which netted Ramirez, McGuire, and Teoscar, along with a year of LIriano who helped in ’16, was a great deal. The Joe Smith moves, both signing and trades, ended up in value for an MLB player and minor league help as well. We didn’t see this under Alex at all. A large part of that is he didn’t have the group – guys like Shapiro, Atkins, Cherington, Sanders, Kim etc. to help him. Nor apparently did (does) he want it.

            I like Alford too (though I doubt any of the other 3 you name, Jansen, Tellez or Pompey make it as MLB starters). He’s an Afro-American from the delta and I pull for kids like that, who aren’t born on base. I don’t see him as JBJ though, as he lacks the power and most likely the defence, though he will still be good defensively. I see his ceiling as Shannon Stewart with better defence. Rather than saying that Guerrero was the only positional prospect. of ‘real value’, that Alex l left in the minors, I should have said Guerrero and Alford were the only positional prospects of value.

            Lastly, when I read allegations about ‘hatred’, my eyes gloss over a bit because it’s usually a sign of either a kid or someone struggling. I don’t dislike Alex at all, though I find the late ‘thank you Alex!’ worship for a guy whose legend is built on one season of a team hitting with men in scoring position, an unrepeatable skill, a bit much. And I find the degrading of the current FO on Toronto internet foolish.

      • lukewarmwater

        Yet people who would point this out in this posting site were continually lambasted, don’t you understand, you draft pitcher after pitcher after pitcher, yeah that’s it. As Nice Guy Eddie so brilliantly stated the Jays lack of drafting of positional players has put them behind the 8 ball and now both the Yankees and Red Sox will be in a bidding war each year to go after the top free agents. Some of them will flop but these two wealthy organisations don’t care as they will find some gems in those free agents that will cost them a hell of a lot of money. Let us not forget that yes it is now 25 years ago but back in the early 1990’s free agents wanted to come to Toronto so THEY COULD WIN. What a freaking concept.

    • Oakville Jays

      It was an important step for AA to take 2 shots at building a playoff team. The 2012 trade with the Marlins + Dickey did not work out on the field. However, it rebuilt fan interest in the Jays to 2.5M tickets sold. The 2015 trades built a playoff team that should have gone to the World Series. The team came within 2 games of that. Fan interest & revenue is at an all time high.

      Shapiro has a top 10 payroll budget to work with thanks to AA.term as GM & President.
      The Cleveland model didn’t work for most of Shapiro’s

      • Nice Guy Eddie

        Oakville:

        1. What exactly do you think is ” The Cleveland & Houston model” that you refer to? Do you think it’s draffting intelligently players like Lindor,, Judge, Betts, Bird, Benintendi, JBJ; making intelligent international signings like Ramirez, Devers, Boegarts; trading for controllable young talent like Aaron Hicks, Didi,, Torres; and occasionally for well-priced controllable stars like Sale? Is that what you think the “Cleveland Model is? Patiently developing a team of young players instead of trading your farm system for Troy Tulowitzki, Dickey, and a couple months of David Price? Or trying to build a team on foolish free agent contracts? Because it looks to me like the Cleveland Model as you put it, is every team’s model. The other ‘model’ seems to be having people load up theeir diapers on the internet whenever a free agent isn’t signed, and that we can call the “Toronto Internet Model”. No team considers that a model anymore. That died a long time ago, everywhere except with Toronto fans who like to consider thamselves victims. Toronto has a great FO now – Shapiro, Atkins, LaCava, Cherington, Sanders, Kim – the best its had since the early 90”s at least and maybe ever. And its no surprise that internet complainers who’ve spent 15-20 years watching bad FO’s dont appreciate it. So tell us about the Cleveland Model and the ‘model’ you espouse.

        • drunk man walking

          What I want you to do is construct a team built on players drafted and developed by the Indians since ‘Shapiro took over in 2001. You do know that they have only got, for example, 2 seasons worth more than 2bWAR from a starting pitcher that they drafted in all that time. From 2001 to 2011 they essentially got nothing from their draft picks. In the 17 years since Shapiro took over there are only a handful of position players that they drafted who have managed more than say 5 WAR…Lindor, Chisenhall and Kipnis. This is a bad model to follow. Why don’t we pick a team that actually has a good record of drafting and developing players…say the SFGiants or StL, without tanking for a decade like Houston, KC, Cubs, etc. And yes NY and Boston have been good, particularly since they have rarely (Binentendi notwithstanding) high picks.

          • Nice Guy Eddie

            Great question, though, no one said anything as restrictive as only players drafted leaving out international signings and trades for young players. The Indians traded an old Jake Westbrook to get a veryyoung Corey Kluber. He won the Ole. Hoss Radbourn Award (previously the Cy Young).

            They traded an old Cliff Lee to the Phillies to get a young Carlos Carrasco. When I say ‘young’ he was 22 at the time. He just turned in a 5.4 bWAR season. By contrast, the pitchers craved by Toronto internet, David Price and James Shields, just turned in 1.7 and 0.2 bWAR seasons.

            Next, the Indians sent oldster flop Shin-Soo Choo, another Toronto internet fav at the time, to get Trevor Bauer.

            They traded a 20th round pick named Pestano for a young Mike Clevinger, who turned in 3.1 bWAR this year in a deal so bad that the Dodgers should be fined for it.

            And they signed and developed Danny Salazar as a kid on the international market.

            The theme in all of this is trading old players for talented young players and developing a sustainable, talented pitching staff. So talented, it’s one of the best starting pitching staffs in MLB history off this year’s numbers. And the folks who did this were either led or selected by Mark Shapiro, who is, believe it or not, a target for Toronto internet. As someone else said, we are lucky to have him.

            And

          • drunk man walking

            Nice guy eddie…yah we wouldn’t want to be very restrictive like that. Why bother with the draft and development anyways, when you can just let others teams D&D do the work. That trade path is even more important when your own system seems useless.

  • justaregularjaysfan

    maybe this is a little bit of a knee jerk for some (I’ve been saying this from before stanton), but they need to forget about 2018. You can compete, of that there’s no doubt, but my concern isn’t that they could compete but what it would take to compete. You have holes in your rotation, your entire outfield and serious and crushing infield depth issues. How do you go about fixing these problems? There are ways, sure, but how many free agents out there make this team good enough to win now and in a couple years. You can put up with pillar if he’s surrounded by others, so at least one outfielder (say cain or martinez), a pitcher (cobb?) and depth. Is that team good enough for a second wildcard, maybe? but maybe a second wildcard is not good enough for a franchise to push its chips all in.

    If I were the jays, I would look into locking up donaldson long term. If thats not doable, then and only then do you move him, and I’d wanna see what the guys like alford and pompey and teoscar have this year before the bonanza of 2018 free agency. Realistically speaking, 2018 was always gonna be hard to compete in, but the years after that, with a lot of money coming off the books, coupled with young players developing into contributors, you could be in a much better situation by 2019, 2020. The mistake would be to completely blow everything up because there are good young pieces in place, just not enough to compete with the Al east or quite frankly the twins or angels or mariners or rangers, who also get to play not the yankees red sox orioles and rays

  • In the height of “Aaron Judge is Baseball Jesus” media cycle in the 2017 season, one of my Twitter buddies in New York was wondering why I wasn’t excited for Yankee success. Well, things like this.
    The more distance from the 2015 season makes me wish the Jays had just won it all that year. And that maybe the Cubs winning the 2016 World Series opened up some kind of terrible reality. They made a deal with the devil and the devil is coming to collect.